Hello friends! Last week on Reading The Wheel of Time, I said we were moving on to Chapters 17 and 18 of The Path of Daggers, but as it turns out, that section is finished up in Chapter 19, so we’ll be covering all three this week! Will Egwene be able to complete her plan and take control of the Hall as a real Amyrlin? Read on to find out!
Egwene and her column leave the Aes Sedai camp before dawn, traveling slowly though the snowy landscape as dawn breaks. They are escorted by a thousand heavy cavalry, led by Uno Nomesta, while other men ride ahead, looking ready for anything. Egwene takes note of the thoughtful attitudes of her companions, including the Sitters. Everyone, even the accompanying servants, have been fitted out in the finest clothes that could be found in the camp, and the Sitters are all bedecked in fine fabrics and jewels. Egwene notes that Delana has brought Halima along, and Halima is almost as finely dressed as the Sitters. Egwene is glad for the gifts she’d been given when she was raised Amyrlin, which allows her to surpass even the Sitters in finery.
Some of Bryne’s scouts report to him, and he fills Egwene in—the Andorans and Murandians have already arrived, as expected, but Bryne reports that Talmanes is with them, and there are about a hundred of the Band waiting on the far side of the lake. Egwene is privately panicked about the complications Talmanes might pose, while Romanda and Lelaine upbraid Bryne either for not being as good at this as he believed or deliberately including Talmanes in his “scheming.”
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They reach the appointed meeting place, a lake where the ice has frozen enough to hold the weight of a fair number of horses, but not hundreds or thousands. Egwene can see a pavilion that has been erected in the middle of the lake, and the rest of the army on the far side, armor glinting in the sun. She rides out, followed by the Sitters, Siuan, Sheriam, and the servants. Bryne and the banner-man are the only soldiers who accompany them.
They are not greeted in a proper manner; no servants come to hold their horses or to offer warm drinks. The Aes Sedai ignore this, replacing the simple chairs set out for them with elevated benches and an elevated chair for Egwene, draped in cloth the color of each Ajah. When Egwene and the Sitters take their places, they are raised a foot higher than the others.
Before anyone can speak, Sheriam intones formal introductions, naming each of the nobles to Egwene in turn (Bryne managed to get all of their names ahead of time) and then telling them they may now present their supplications to the Amyrlin Seat. Egwene adds to the effect by reminding them of the ancient ties between the White Tower and Andor, and how sisters have always been welcomed in both Andor and Murandy, and asking them why they have sent an army against the Aes Sedai, and are meddling in Aes Sedai affairs.
Arathelle answers that they are there precisely because they don’t want to become involved in Aes Sedai affairs. They fear that even allowing the group to pass through will be seen by the White Tower as giving aid, as taking a side. They have heard reports—rumors only, but rumors coming from every direction—of Aes Sedai and Tower guards being sent into Andor in secret. No one wants to be caught in a battle between Aes Sedai, and Arathelle suggests that the Aes Sedai might secretly be preparing for a confrontation with the Black Tower. Pelivar jumps in to insist that they go another way.
Through all of this, everyone has addressed the Sitters, ignoring Egwene. She keeps her calm, however, and instead of naming Romanda or Lelaine as the person to speak for her, she informs the nobles that Elaida is a usurper, and that they are going to Tar Valon to remove Elaida and try her. But this, like the Black Tower, is Aes Sedai business and not theirs; she also says that they will deal with the Black Tower when the time comes, but that is not their focus now. She tells them that the Aes Sedai will not be crossing into Andor. They will be staying in Murandy for one month, during which time they will pay prices to the Murandian nobles for what supplies the Aes Sedai need, and then they will leave, troubling neither country further.
Egwene needed to make them forget the girl they saw before them, and hear a woman with the reins of power firmly in hand. If they were not in her hands now, they would be! She firmed her voice. “Mark me well. I have made my decision; it is for you to accept it. Or face what surely will come from your failure.”
It is clear to Egwene that Arathelle and the others believe she is only saying words that she was instructed by the Sitters to say, but she is still relieved when they agree. Arathelle states that the Andorans do not doubt the words of the Aes Sedai, but they will remain while the Aes Sedai do. Some of the Murandian nobles look sick at this.
Egwene declares that they should all remain a few moments, now that the formal conversation is over—getting to know each other now will help avoid misunderstandings later. She also mentions, as though off the cuff, that the novice book is now open to any woman, regardless of age. All the nobles head over to the Sitters, bypassing Egwene entirely. Siuan tries to take Egwene to task for the announcement of opening the novice books, but Egwene cuts her off, suggesting that she might tell Bryne that Siuan is in love with him. While Siuan is goggling, Egwene disentangles herself and goes over to talk to Talmanes.
Talmanes asks Egwene where she sent Mat, and Egwene is about to lie, or perhaps give a half-truth, when she happens to glance across the room and see Siuan watching her. Remembering what Siuan said about lying, about expediency and convenience and the Three Oaths, Egwene tells Talmanes the truth—that Mat was last in Ebou Dar, but she expects that he is hurrying north now.
Talmanes did not look at all surprised. “I thought it might be so,” he sighed. “I have… felt… something, for weeks now. Others in the Band have, too. Not urgent, but always there. As if he needed me. As if I should look south, anyway. It can be peculiar, following a ta’veren.”
Because of Egwene’s honesty, Talmanes admits to her that King Roedran wants to hire the Band; he hopes to cement his rule by using the Band’s presence to unite Murandy and drive men to Roedran’s own army. Talmanes is only considering it because they need money, and because of the feel of Mat needing them—he thinks it might be better if they stay south and wait for him.
Egwene urges Talmanes not to trust Roedran, but Talmanes is confident that Mat will find them before Roedran’s army is ready.
Egwene made a vexed sound. It was a remarkable plan, the sort of thing Siuan might devise, and hardly a scheme she thought Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a’Naloy could carry off. The fellow was said to be so dissolute he made Mat look wholesome. But then, it was hardly a scheme she would have believed Roedran could think up. The only certainty was that Talmanes had made up his mind.
She asks Talmanes to give his word that he won’t let himself be drawn into a war, going so far as to threaten to prevent his agreement with Roedran. Talmanes is startled by the threat, and seems to see her for the first time. Then he promises, and asks if she’s sure she isn’t ta’veren as well. Egwene responds that being the Amyrlin is enough for anyone.
Everyone is eager to get back to their own camps before nightfall, so when Egwene gives the word the Aes Sedai pack up quickly, setting as hard a pace as they can through the snow. In part, Egwene is hoping to keep the Sitters from being able to talk and plan amongst themselves, although she notices some manage to form little knots of conversation.
Only Delana never joined one of those brief conversations. She stayed close beside Halima, who at last admitted that she was cold. Face tight, the country woman held her cloak close around her, but she still tried to comfort Delana, whispering to her almost constantly. Delana seemed to need comforting; her brows were drawn down, putting a crease in her forehead that actually made her seem aged.
Sheriam remarks to Egwene how different Egwene is from when she first came to the Tower, and how much has changed. Egwene points out that nothing stays the same forever, and Sheriam looks sick. Still, she follows Egwene’s instructions to announce that the Amyrlin is calling the Hall to sit and for preparations to be made.
Siuan and Egwene retreat to Egwene’s tent where they are fussed over by Chesa and brought some warm soup; Egwene suddenly realizes how cold she is, and how hungry. Siuan asks Egwene not to tell Bryne about her love, because she is worried he will make her life miserable, and the two women argue back and forth about Siuan’s ability to keep her head straight. Egwene wonders if Bryne insisted that Siuan work off the debt, even after learning who she really was, in order to keep her close to him. She even wonders for a moment if Bryne built the army and then laid it at Egwene’s feet because he loves Siuan—then decides that the idea is too ridiculous.
Siuan admits that she doesn’t know why she’s acting this way, then observes how ridiculous it is that they’re sitting and chatting about men at a moment like this. They continue to eat, with Siuan occasionally making darkly humorous remarks until Sheriam arrives to tell Egwene that everything is ready.
Usually the Hall meets more informally, in a normal tent or even standing outside in the snow, but tonight, the pavilion has been set up. According to the usual formalities, a ward is erected to keep the conversation to the Hall alone, sealed away from any listening ears. Then, Egwene calls a question to the Hall, asking who will declare war against Elaida, the usurper.
After a shocked silence, Lelaine brushes Egwene’s question away, trying to turn the Hall’s attention to dealing with Egwene’s actions during the meeting with the Andorans and Murandians. Romanda interrupts to say that first they need to address the issue of Lelaine’s fitness to continue in the Hall. But Egwene is insistent, telling them that the issue of war, once raised, has to be answered, according to Tower Law.
A brown sister, Takima, is consulted on this point. The last time the Tower declared war was against Artur Hawkwing, and Siuan has told Egwene that few sisters know much about how the Law of War works. But Takima has read it, and after an anxious moment, reluctantly admits that Egwene is right.
Egwene gives a speech, carefully constructed and practiced with Siuan, telling the Sitters about how no one takes them seriously as Sitters for the Hall—as the true representatives of the White Tower. She points out that, no matter how many times they explain Elaida’s crimes and their intentions, the nobles of the lands still doubt the truth of their words, believing them to have some other, hidden goal, worried that they are actually representatives of Elaida, executing some elaborate scheme. Dispelling this confusion, Egwene insists, is the only thing left for them to do—and once they declare themselves at war with Elaida, there can be no doubts.
“No one will dare stand in our way, meddling in the affairs of the Tower through uncertainty and ignorance. We have walked to the door and put our hands on the latch. If you are afraid to walk through, then you all but ask the world to believe that you are nothing but Elaida’s puppets.”
She sits, surprised that she feels relatively calm. But she’s worried that Takima, with her knowledge of the Law of War, might say something that gives away Egwene’s plan.
Romanda asks who will stand to vote for war against Elaida. Janya rises first, pointing out that this won’t make things any more difficult and that there is little point in waiting. Others rise, including Delana, although she looks sick. But only ten stand—not enough for a majority, and for a moment Egwene thinks that she has failed.
Suddenly Moira, one of those standing, rounds on Lyrelle and Lelaine, upbraiding them for their lack of resolve. Lelaine tells Moira off for her lack of decorum… but she stands, pulling Lyrelle up with her.
Lelaine seemed surprised that it did not pull up Faiselle and Takima, too.
Far from standing, Takima grunted as if struck. Disbelief bright on her face, she ran her eyes along the women on their feet, obviously counting. And then did it again. Takima, who remembered everything the first time.
This gives the vote a majority, and so it passes. Sheriam asks the rest of the Hall to stand and give the vote a formal, full consensus, but everyone refuses. When Romanda tries to move on to other subjects, Egwene interrupts. She asks Takima to tell the Hall what the Law says about the Amyrlin Seat.
Anxiously, and clearly reluctantly, Takima answers.
“The Law of War states, ‘As one set of hands must guide a sword, so the Amyrlin Seat shall direct and prosecute the war by decree. She shall seek the advice of the Hall of the Tower, but the Hall shall carry out her decrees with all possible speed, and for the sake of unity, they shall…” She faltered, and had to visibly force herself to go on. “…they shall and must approve any decree of the Amyrlin Seat regarding prosecution of the war with the greater consensus.”
Delana has to turn and be sick over the back of the bench. A few of the seated sisters look ready to be as well, and Romanda is clearly furious. In a very disrespectful tone, Lelaine asks Egwene what she, in the “great wisdom of [her] vast experience,” intends to do next, and Egwene speaks to her sharply about the proper respect due the Amyrlin Seat. Lelaine looks shocked. Romanda seems pleased until she, too, is rebuked, with Egwene threatening to set penance, and even to birch both of them.
Finally, Egwene tells them that there will be no more delays in their march to Tar Valon. After their one month of rest, they will Travel from this spot to Tar Valon and begin their siege.
And so at last, we finally get to know Egwene and Siuan’s plan to wrest control away from the Hall and into Egwene’s hands. It’s quite impressive, really, requiring equal parts sneaking, political maneuvering and knowledge, and pure brazen courage. And it’s interesting to remember that it was Siuan’s idea to make Egwene a puppet figurehead in the first place. She hoped to control and direct Egwene by manipulating the Hall, and when Egwene immediately proved to Siuan that she would not be controlled that way, Siuan chose the next best option, working on Ewgene’s behalf and manipulating the Hall for her. This means that Egwene is in charge over Siuan, rather than the way Siuan originally intended it. This actually gives Siuan more than she would have had before, because now she and Egwene can work together, two intelligent, inventive women working to the same purpose, rather than Siuan working more or less alone, pulling many strings in the hope that enough of them will get the Aes Sedai pointed in the direction she wants them to be.
Throughout Egwene’s section of The Path of Daggers, we have been reminded of how important the traditions and laws of the Tower are to the Aes Sedai, to their very sense of who they are, both as individuals and as an institution. We’ve observed the ongoing struggle of the Salidar Aes Sedai to maintain, as close as possible, the impression that nothing has really been changed by their flight from Tar Valon, and to downplay in their own minds the division in the White Tower, even as Egwene slowly pushes them to take steps towards acknowledging and cementing that division.
She has had to cajole, trick, and drag them through every step that might functionally acknowledge that the Aes Sedai have changed, and that more changes, or at least highly unusual actions and choices, are inevitably going to follow. Even Siuan, who is, all things considered, a very adaptable person, and who is helping Egwene orchestrate everything, is shown to be struggling sometimes. The conversation about the Three Oaths was important for a lot of reasons, and I imagine will be a continuing theme for Egwene to ponder over, but it also served as yet another reminder to the reader of exactly how the Aes Sedai think and function.
All those reminders are incredibly useful now, as we learn that Siuan and Egwene’s entire plan hinges on the Salidar Hall both accepting and sticking to Tower Law—a Tower Law most of them have never even read, at that.
After all, literally nothing is stopping them from deciding to ignore the Law of War. Faced with a situation that makes some of them literally sick (Delana aside, since her reasons are somewhat different from the others), it wouldn’t have surprised me at all if they’d found some flimsy pretense to say that the Law didn’t apply in this case. Except for Takima (and Siuan, of course), none of them even know the Law in question, and it becomes obvious as soon as Egwene reveals it that this has been a carefully planned manipulation on her part. And yet even Romanda and Lelaine roll over for it immediately.
And the reason for this is because they believe that the traditions and laws of the Aes Sedai are the Aes Sedai. Of course there has been some evolution over time, but some laws and customs are so old that nobody even knows why they exist anymore, and they are still viewed as foundational to the identity of what makes a sister. Romanda and Lelaine might snipe and backstab and behave like two jealous teenagers, but they are Aes Sedai of long standing. They have had a very long time to absorb these rules about what Aes Sedai are, and clearly they aren’t willing to throw them away even if it means losing the power they’ve both been fighting to gain since the division.
I was very interested to learn that Romanda was also a rival against Tamara for the Amyrlin Seat. It adds a little something to her backstory and her animosity towards Lelaine (a Blue, like Tamara) and Siuan (a Blue and Tamara’s successor.) Thwarted ambition seems to make certain types of sisters into very short-sighted, selfish people—though Romanda and Elaida are not exactly a full statistical sampling.
Now, since the reader is on Siuan and Egwene’s side, the successful manipulation of the Hall via their own convictions and commitment to Tower Law feels like a good thing. But it also made me feel a little uncomfortable, seeing how easy it is for someone to control the sisters. Perhaps easy isn’t quite the right word, given how hard Siuan and Egwene had to plan and scheme and how much they had to risk in order to execute this plan. It’s just that there’s no real difference between their manipulation, done in the service of good and to help prepare the Aes Sedai for Rand and the coming of Tarmon Gai’don, and manipulation done by the Black Ajah to set Aes Sedai on a path to serve their own ends. Or by Elaida, not Black but certainly not a good person, who also exploited Tower Law to usurp Siuan in a way that was technically legal, though not enough so to prevent a schism in the Tower. The only difference between these three examples is the motivation behind the action.
Which speaks, I think, to Siuan’s fear that she will abuse her ability to lie and, in her own words, lose herself. Everything I said last week about her not reading the situation correctly still stands, but I do think her fear is warranted, and important. Siuan isn’t even that ambitious. Her dream for herself was freedom and traveling, not serving as Sitter or as Amyrlin, but she is determined, and she is very aware of how far she is willing to go to achieve her ends—ends that for a little while were her only reason for living, at that. And Egwene is ambitious. She is also focused on important goals, but there is a reason she keeps thinking about the historical Amyrlins and which one she might end up another version of. She wants to achieve her goals, but she also wants the status and the power purely because she wants it. This bit at the end of chapter 19 really encapsulates her journey from Accepted who would rather train with the Wise Ones than with the Aes Sedai to a woman who considers herself a leader of women.
[S]he was Egwene al’Vere, and whatever the secret histories would say of her faults and virtues, the Light only knew, but they would be hers, not copies of some other woman’s.
Nothing is wrong with that, of course, but I do think it’s important to note that ambition does tend to corrupt, and this is especially significant in channelers, be they the Black Ajah members and Elaidas of the world, or men like Mazrim Taim. Siuan wasn’t just warning Egwene about the danger to herself, or to the Aes Sedai in general. She was warning Egwene about her own drive for power, and how she is going to have to be careful to stay on the right side of it.
This is a theme of The Wheel of Time that has been most obviously explored with Rand and Lews Therin and the Forsaken, but is important to many other characters as well. I think it will be very interesting to see how Egwene handles achieving so much authority in such a short span of time, and what challenges present themselves along the way.
I enjoyed the dramatic irony of Egwene noticing Delana and Halima throughout the section. I found myself wondering if Delana wasn’t the one who was beating Sheriam back in chapter 16—Halima/Aran’gar is clearly directing all Delana’s actions, and I suspect Aran’gar is getting frustrated that she hasn’t learned more from Egwene. Killing Egwene’s other servants was probably part of that; Aran’gar wants to eliminate the “competition” as it were for closeness to Egwene. But Aran’gar also has a cover to maintain, and cannot be a rival to someone like Sheriam or Siuan, who would appear to Aran’gar to be Egwene’s real confidants—Sheriam perhaps even more so than Siuan, since they are being very careful about masking Siuan’s true importance and situation. But if Sheriam is Black Ajah, or perhaps even if she isn’t, one can imagine Delana might have some power or authority, perhaps through blackmail, over her. Since Sheriam is Egwene’s Keeper, Delana might expect that she knows more than the rest of the Hall.
But Sheriam doesn’t know much more, and if she isn’t Black Ajah, the Oaths would still hold her, which means her oath to Egwene would also hold. Delana and Aran’gar clearly had no idea what Egwene was planning for the meeting with the Andoran and Murandian nobles, and they certainly had no idea that Egwene was about to execute a plan to take control of the Hall.
Delana does stand to vote to declare war against Elaida, after turning around to peer into the crowd outside the pavilion. It’s possible that she was looking for guidance from Aran’gar—the Hall was shielded so no one could listen in, but I imagine a Forsaken channeling saidin where there are only saidar users would be able to find a way around that. Since the Dark One’s instructions are to sow chaos and to weaken the White Tower, Egwene declaring war might serve those ends very well. But Delana is also clearly distressed over Egwene taking the reins of wartime decisions; they are here to weaken the Aes Sedai, and everyone knows Egwene’s connection to the Dragon Reborn, so this news is probably not in keeping with their directives as Darkfriends.
In addition, Delana might have her own, non-Black Ajah feelings about a war between the Aes Sedai. She is still a sister after all, and Darkfriends’ desires can often be very contradictory in nature. Back in chapter 30 of Lord of Chaos, we had a section from Delana’s point of view in which she remembered her old friendship with Siuan and genuinely seems to want to help her. Halima shows up immediately after Siuan left, which puts paid to Delana’s other ambitions and makes her confront the truth of being a Darkfriend in a way she hadn’t before. Plenty of regular sisters might scheme and plot to bring down their rivals and achieve their own political ambition; being Black Ajah might not have felt that different at first, or made Delana believe she had to turn her back on all her friends. Having someone like Aran’gar show up would have shattered that illusion, however.
I really enjoyed the meeting between Egwene’s forces and Arathelle’s, particularly the symbolism of holding the encounter out on ice that was thick enough to hold a fair number of people, but not enough to fight a battle. The strength of that ice matches the strength of the agreement they reached. It will hold… unless it’s pushed too much.
Roedran’s plan to use the Band much in the same way that Egwene used them was a surprise. I had imagined that Egwene hoped to add the Band’s strength to Bryne’s forces for the siege on Tar Valon, but that doesn’t really seem to have been on her mind. She used them as a goad to prod the Aes Sedai to move in the direction she wanted, then as a red herring (like Faile’s suggestion to Perrin to use the Manetheren banner) to those seeing Egwene’s army on the move. She’d no doubt like to keep them, but she’s not depending on them any longer. And she seems genuinely concerned about their welfare, which surprised me a little, too.
I also appreciated that we saw Egwene’s honesty be rewarded. She tells Talmanes the truth because of what Siuan said about expedient and necessary lies, but as a result she actually gets more than a lie would have gotten. She doesn’t really remark on this within the narration, so I’m not sure how much she caught on to it, but I’m hoping the lesson might stick. Most of the characters in this story seem to believe that there is no place for truth, that truth cannot win you allies and only manipulation cements your place. It’s one of the reasons I love Perrin so much. But it is true that truth and trust can be exactly what’s called for, and I hope we see more of that from the side of the Light. As the Dark continues to spread distrust, to fill people’s minds with false rumors and evil lies, what we really need is a little more truth and justice from the Light.
After all, Egwene believes a lot more of the rumors about Rand than I thought she would, or that she would have in the first few books. A little reminder about speaking truth and trusting your friends feels like just what she needs, especially since she has just gained so much power, and is about to lead her followers into a war.
Join me back here next week for a standalone essay about Aes Sedai, their customs, traditions, and hypocrisies. Until then, I wish you all a lovely week and remind you that sometimes, just sometimes, honesty really is the best policy.
Sylas K Barrett noticed that Egwene does not seem as worried about Mat this week as she did last week when she was dreaming of him, but suspects that the Band will have to do a bit more than wait for Mat to come back north on his own. Either that, or they might be waiting quite a while.
Of all the world-shifting things that happened in these chapters, one of the biggest went remarkably uncommented on: The opening of the Novice book to anyone, of any age.
I think of all the ways Egwene is reshaping the White Tower, this one is probably the one that will have the biggest impact, post-Tarmon Gaidon.
Not quite anyone, as it turns out…
MODS: Some misspellings:
Moira => Moria
Tamara => Tamra
I’m also curious to see if Sylas eventually picks up on the pattern of which sitters vote “no” on these momentous votes.
The old Amyrlin’s name is Tamra.
Why doesn’t Aran’gar kill Chesa? Because she isn’t anyone’s spy? Because someone should be left to do the actual work?
@@.-@: My guess would be because if *everybody* other than Halima died even the Salidar Aes Sedai, a group not otherwise particularly noted for being insightful, might be able to connect the dots. And, on top of that, Chesa was provided by Sheriam, so Aran’gar might well feel no particular issue with her being around Egwene either.
@@.-@ and 5 According to the WOT Companion (Chesa entry) “Meri and Selame were murdered by Halima, because they might have seen or overheard something that would have endangered Halima’s own position and safety. Chesa survived simply because she wasn’t a spy for anyone, just a maid”
Oooh, the plot is moving (ha ha ha)!
Anyway, I kind of have various thoughts bouncing around my head about tradition and identity and holding to something bigger than yourself – but maybe that will be better left for the essay next week! In the meantime, hello from the lake :)
Another in the long list of moments where several characters have to act like absolute idiots in order for Egwene to get her way. It’s strongly implied that Takima knows exactly what Egwene’s plan is, and conveniently decides to wait until just after it won’t matter to blurt it out.
Also, something I’ve never noticed before but which is important for later…. look at who votes for Egwene. And then note how she never, not once, reflects on what that means for the legality of this vote. Egwene very explicitly, and very rightly, notes that Black Ajah participation in Elaida’s coup means that even the technical veneer of legality gets stripped away to make it a naked power grab, but she never connects that she herself is guilty of just as much of an illegal coup as Elaida was, since her effective usurpation of the power of the Hall comes on the back of Black Ajah votes as well.
I still hold that Egwene’s natural arc is to become a Forsaken. Her thirst for knowledge and drive for power have far more in common with characters who fall to the Shadow than the rest of our protagonists, and this kind of “rules for thee, not for me” attitude would be a great example of the slippery slope Egwene embarks on to achieve and hold power. Instead of making every possible foe turn into an incompetent boob the second they oppose Egwene for any reason, have her resort to increasingly unethical means to get her way, just as Siuan warns her against here, until she finds herself basically an agent of the Shadow
Well, I think Egwene is at the least, one of the many examples of how being on the side of the Light does not give you perfect moral certitude.
Or perhaps you could argue that Egwene would never become a Forsaken because she would never want to be ‘under’ the Dark One, haha.
All that said I do think that – despite her methods (and I really do hate her ‘do what you want and then pay for it’ mentality at times) her motives are still pretty firmly on the side of the light and (in her mind – even if she is deluding herself to some extent) her intentions for that power are to use it on behalf of humanity and fight the Dark.
I don’t see her as a Forsaken, but I do see her as another example of what can happen when well intentioned extremists start to lose the thread and tell themselves it’s ‘all for a good cause’.
@@@@@ Lisamarie – I think Egwene is a good example of the “die a hero, or live long enough to become a villain” idea.
She goes out in a blaze of glory, and there isn’t much reflection on her methods or her rise to power, which is fine – no issues with mythologizing her as a figure of legend. I just don’t think it’s particularly clear that she’d do well as a peacetime Amyrlin – she’s a massive hypocrite, completely self-centered, and doesn’t care about trampling on traditions or norms if it gains her an iota of what she wants. All of this is what the Aes Sedai need in the very short term – someone with drive and vision, who isn’t shackled by the accumulated detritus of thousands of years of tradition and custom. That part is made very explicit in the text. But when the Last Battle is done, and it’s time to rebuild? That isn’t a process that requires a leader, it is a process that requires consensus, something Egwene is singularly ill-suited to building. All of her achievements come through deception and trickery (not coincidentally the exact thing she admonishes others for) and her complete disinterest in respecting Aes Sedai norms should alienate most of her sisters.
Again, I think Egwene’s motives are very good, for the most part. It’s just that she’s so self-righteous, and the narrative is so invested in making her personal interests dovetail perfectly with those of the Tower as a whole, that it’s almost impossible not to see her falling into the trap of completely losing the ability to distinguish what she wants versus what is best for the Tower and Randland as a whole. As long as there is an existential crisis going on, as long as the opposition is the literal embodiment of evil, Egwene is excusable, perhaps even necessary. But once that passes? This is a woman who has explicitly claimed, at least in her internal narration, that rules don’t apply to her, that she’s special, and that anyone trying to hold her back can and should be ignored. All it takes is one transgression beyond the pale, to push one norm a little too far, and then she’s gone. She’s Graendal or Semirhage or Asmodean – a prodigy who has already shown that the rules that apply to others, shouldn’t apply to her, and that all this can be excused because of her exceptional ability.
@@@@@ 9, 10
“Or perhaps you could argue that Egwene would never become a Forsaken because she would never want to be ‘under’ the Dark One, haha.”
Exactly! Egwene doesn’t serve anyone other than herself. She might veer into Darkfriend territory, but actually become one, let alone one of The Chosen? Doubtful. She is much more like Lanfear than Graendal, Semirhage, or Asmodean. Like the former Mierin Sedai, she is driven more by personal ambition than anything else. But I can’t see her ever lowering herself to swear to the Dark One.
“In place of a dark lord one you would have a queen!”
This is an interesting discussion re Egwene becoming a DF. I think that there was 0% chance of her becoming a DF as events happen in the book series with trollocs, myrddraal, and forsaken running around and her being in the centre of it. Not to mention rather poor role model BA AS that she comes across after meeting some of the best examples of non-BA AS.
But in an alternative timeline? Quite possible. With the last battle off the table and her following the typical path of going to the White Tower etc. Never meeting the Aiel Wise Ones, Moiraine, etc. With the BA sniffing around and chafing under those pesky and restrictive rules…
@10-
Your analysis of Egwene as the perfect wartime Amrylin and a terrible peacetime Amrylin is a terrific parallel to Winston Churchill.
Despite leading the country through the war, his party was defeated in a landslide in the 1945 election.
From an article after the election:
I’ve been wondering about that. Does the first oath have the effect that other oaths sworn later become as binding as if they too had been sworn on the Oath Rod? I don’t think so. I think the first oath probably prevents an Aes Sedai from swearing an oath that she intends to break. I don’t think it prevents her from breaking the other oath later if she changes her mind or gives in to pressure.
@andrewrm (10):
I know you passionately hate Egwene, but we never actually get a chance to see what kind of leader she could become if there weren’t a pressing need to get ready for the Last Battle.
When the Last Battle is done, it’s not only time to rebuild. That’s also a time of great change. The Green Ajah’s official purpose has been fulfilled. They’ll have to come up with a new purpose or dissolve the Ajah. The Red Ajah’s purpose is defunct, and the many misandrists among the Red won’t like Pevara’s proposed new purpose one bit. The Windfinders’ and the Kin’s secrets are out, the Kin and the Wise Ones have lost their reverence for Aes Sedai, and the situation with the Seanchan is quite unstable.
The Aes Sedai will need to change and adapt, which works best with young and flexible leaders. Egwene had many ideas for changes. With the old, conservative Cadsuane in the Amyrlin Seat, I’m afraid they’ll try to resist all change, and thus gradually lose relevance.On that note:
@AGrey (1):
Won’t Cadsuane and the Hall just stop accepting adult novices once Egwene is gone?
I figure Moria convinces Lelaine and Lyrelle to vote to declare war thinking that she’s carrying out the Dark One’s order to sow chaos by promoting war between two factions of Aes Sedai. Instead she effectively ends the power struggle within the Salidar faction and lets Egwene take an important step on the path that will lead to reuniting the White Tower. It’s one of many instances of the Shadow’s scheming backfiring.
I am unsure why people think the world will have peace now that the Dark One is defeated. Tuon pretty much thinks about breaking the treaty she signed with Rand and Egwene soon after they make the deal and she withholds her troops from the Last Battle until almost the very end (and since her participation in the Last Battle is the reason for Rand and Egwene’s concessions in the Dragon’s Peace, I would consider that a breach of the Treaty already) No, the Tower and the rest of RandLand not under the control of the Seanchan will be in the Cold War with the Seanchan for the forseeable future. And that could very easily erupt into more than a Cold War.
@@@@@Rombobjörn (15)
I doubt it.
For one thing, between the Aes Sedai deaths during the Black Ajah Purge, and the ones who died in the Last battle itself, the White Tower right now probably has more “too old” novices than it does Aes Sedai.
For another, the Black Tower’s policy of active recruitment at any age meant that they were able to match the White Tower’s population in about two years. Unless the Aes Sedai want the Asha’man to outnumber them ten-to-one going forward, they pretty much have to do the same.
And as others have mentioned, the Seanchan aren’t going anywhere. All-out battle isn’t a certainty(Avi’s trip through the glass columns was a possible future, not a guarantee), but they’ll have to bring as many woman as they can into the fold, if only to keep them out of the hands of the Seanchan.
Between the Seanchan, other groups of channeling women, and Asha’man, anyone who suggests going back to the old way dooms the Aes Sedai to irrelevance, and I think they all realize this by the end.
I don’t recall where I came across it, but there’s this suggestion that what Avi saw was the previous Fourth Age. So it’s not so much the future as the really, really, really distant past.
@15
How much of a legacy Egwene ends up having is someone I wonder abouy. I don’t think Cadsuane will be able to walk everything Egwene did back, but she definitely is against most of the changes. And since she didn’t want the Amyrlin job in the first place, I don’t see her being particularly willing to make the effort to even meet anyone in the middle. I’m not sure who there is to fight for keeping Egwene’s changes either. Siuan is dead too (and didn’t like them that much herself). Nynaeve becomes more and more Aes Sedai as the books go on, but she remains an outsider and will probably stick to helping rebuild Malkier. Elayne will have her hands full with children and running Andor.
I don’t really agree with the harsh Egwene criticism in the comments, but I do find her chapters a bit tiresome for another reason.
Ever since she was made Amyrlin, we get a bunch of other characters explicitly telling her (and us) how great she is, or what a fantastic leader she’s going to become. It feels like an informed attribute, which is a very basic mistake for such an accomplished author to make. It’s better to show, not tell. The problem is that, in order to show her being quick and clever, everyone else needs to be portrayed as slow and dumb. Frequently.
It all seems a bit too much, to be honest. She’s being propped up both in-universe and out. I think it’s a consequence of how Egwene really hasn’t earned her position. Not yet anyway. That only happens way later (honey in the tea). Everything she’s done so far has been under someone else’s guidance. Even this plan.
I guess Jordan knew this, and kept trying to justify it incessantly.
@@@@@ 20 – You are spot on. Egwene’s entire story arc requires characters who we are told are smart, and experienced, and cunning, acting like total morons. She never earns any of her moments of triumph in the back half of the series, and most of what she achieves relies on the authorial thumb being firmly pressed on the scales in her favor.
@@@@@ 15 – We’ve seen plenty of Egwene’s leadership style. She isn’t going to change without a real spur to that, and her approach has been so often validated that it’s hard to imagine her making those changes herself. Far more likely is that she eventually faces a revolt against her domineering governing style, rather than adapt. Because she’s a major protagonist, she’s always portrayed as being correct in a meta sense. Even when she’s slightly off base (e.g. in regards to the Three Oaths) it is shown to us as something that she may be missing nuance, but is ultimately correct about.
Once you get away from the black and white nature of Armageddon, where almost anything can be justified to oppose the personification of evil, Egwene just doesn’t make sense. Will all her antagonists continue to just roll over and continue to pass the Idiot Ball around? Egwene doesn’t face a single competent opponent after she arrives in Salidar. Every challenge is met by either having her counterparty lie down and let Egwene kick away, or by bringing in a deus ex machina to help her.
As you say, what happens when she has to reform the Red Ajah, and the Green? She’s got to be the most self-centered person in the entire setting; what are the odds she has the ability to listen to what she’s being told? Her whole life experience reinforces the fact that she’s always right, and her instincts turn out well, and that most of her Aes Sedai peers are scheming and unwilling to sacrifice for the greater good of the group – under no circumstance would it be in keeping with her character to take other opinions seriously.
And I don’t hate Egwene, I just think Jordan (and then Sanderson) didn’t know how to give her an effective arc. This goes for a lot of characters at this point – they’ve triumphed in their own way and now are treading water while they wait for Rand’s dark night of the soul. But for Perrin and Mat and Nynaeve, the gradual character growth, in fits and starts and with backsliding and crises of confidence, feels natural. Egwene never looks back, never questions herself, and is never given a compelling enough challenge to force a crisis. So she just wins, and wins, and wins, and never grows. I mean, at one point she beats Mesaana and the win button is basically her unbelievably overweening ego turning into a superpower! A much better story would have been for her to face an opponent or situation which she can’t beat merely by thinking herself superior to it, and have that be the beginning of her heel turn. In every respect, she’s a proto-Forsaken, just waiting for the right push to start down the slippery slope. That is an Egwene I could love. But as it is, her characterization doesn’t make sense as a good guy
I gotta say that even as an Egwene fan, some of the criticisms around her arc ring true.
I would have liked to see more failing, learning from the failures, and growing. Honestly, the best part of her arc is when she gets captured.
That being said, I do kinda see why it had to happen the way it did. Failures and setbacks would have just made the story arc longer (and it’s already the longest arc in the books aside from Rand’s), and given her very precarious position, any believable failure would pretty much derail the whole thing. A believable failure would pretty much have to lead to her being deposed or killed.
In the end, I think the arc would have been much improved by her having to pay a higher cost for her victories.
Being raised Amrylin cost her nothing. What if it had ruined her relationship with Gawyn?
Getting Myrelle and Nisao to swear fealty cost nothing. What if it had turned Suian or Leane against her over their moral objections?
Winning the War Powers from the hall cost her nothing. What if Halima killed Suian in retribution?
Egwene doesn’t have to fail to make the story work, but her victories should feel harder-earned. Or, a victory in one part of her life (politics) should come at the cost of some other part of her life (personal relationships).
One thing I appreciate about Egwene is that she gives 110% to everything she does – a refreshing change of pace from the “I’m no lord” griping we get from the trio. I do wish her “take what you want – and then pay for it” attitude was met with a little more ‘paying for it’ by the narrative.
A quote from Leigh Butler’s reread concerning Takima’s Plot Induced Stupidity and a possible explanation:
Sorry, I was out last week. Just wanted to say that I was surprised to find Sylas saying this about the end of chapter 19 (boldface mine):
I was surprised because I see no evidence in the WOT text that Egwene is focused on having status and power for their own sake—that is, as an ego trip. It is just that, as Rand says, she throws her whole self into doing whatever she does. In Two Rivers, she wanted to be a really good Wisdom; in Aiel country, a really good Dreamer; and after her raising, a really good Amyrlin. As Amyrlin, her desire to excel is super strong because the Last Battle is coming and she knows that the Tower is not ready, to put it mildly. And she needs “status and power,” along with her excellent personal qualities, in order to prepare for that battle.
To me, moreover, there’s nothing odd about Egwene being pleased she can finally be her own self. It’s not just Siuan’s harping about earlier Amyrlins that is getting on Egwene’s nerves. Far more, it’s the fact that Egwene has been under the constant threat of complete erasure for as long as she’s been Amyrlin. Siuan originally proposed her as a “biddable child,” and meant it. Since being raised, Egwene has been told repeatedly, especially by Lelaine and Romanda, that her role is to sit down and shut up while her elders run things. Naturally she wants to be her own woman—not only because it’s unpleasant to be erased but because she can see that the Salidar power bloc is making a hash of things. Is it self-centered to think she can do better? Well, turns out she’s right. Knowing your own worth is not megalomania.
Elaida offers an excellent contrast. She really does want status and power for their own sakes, reflected in how she starts building herself a mammoth palace, how she arranges the chairs in her study—even how she chooses clocks. Nonetheless, she also sees the danger in the upcoming Last Battle, and her egotism is tied to her certainty that she will protect humanity from the Dark Lord:
Elaida offers an excellent contrast. She really does want status and power for their own sakes, reflected in how she starts building herself a mammoth palace, how she arranges the chairs in her study—even how she chooses clocks. Nonetheless, she also sees the danger in the upcoming Last Battle, and her egotism is tied to her certainty that she will protect humanity from the Dark Lord:
Right, but all of this happens after her exposure to Fain, IIRC. Elaida starts out as a woman wanting to save the world, and thinking that Siuan was botching it. At some point after she’s captured, Egwene says something to the effect of “I wish you were worth serving,” and at that point she clearly isn’t… but for a long time, Egwene doesn’t know that! Why doesn’t Egwene submit herself to Elaida right off the bat? We as readers know that Egwene is right and Elaida wrong, but in-universe, it’s made explicit that the Aes Sedai as a whole are split right down the middle about whether Siuan deserved to be deposed. Or into thirds, but the pro/con factions are evenly balanced.
Egwene wants power and authority. It’s a recurring part of her character, and to say she’s not ambitious for the sake of it is to really give her a benefit of the doubt she does nothing to earn. Nynaeve, for example, is clear about what her desires are, why she join the Tower, what the motivation is. And it is explicitly not about status. Egwene very clearly does want the status that comes with being Aes Sedai. Hell, why do you think she sticks around in Salidar? As she occasionally muses, she might very well help Rand a great deal if she left and joined him, and there is something to that argument. But instead she decides to continue the rebellion and not go help the literal Prophesied Savior…. for what? So she can be in charge. Taking the massive issue of the Black Ajah Purge out of it (which isn’t her doing anyway, really), you can easily argue that having the rebels fold and come back to the Tower in a negotiated settlement is actually not such a bad outcome! As we end up seeing, the Tower Hall is ready for just that, and is willing to buck Elaida if it comes to it